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Archive Issue! ON THE RECORD ashim dasgupta; finance minister, west bengal http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=60780&spf=true ???We are doing business we intend to do on our own terms...It??™s World Bank which is changing, not us??™ He has been West Bengal??™s Finance Minister for 17 years, a record he calls ??????unenviable??™??™. In that time, the state has taken steps towards leaving behind its economic mess to become an example of how change can be ushered in by a little pragmatic idealism. In an interview to Shekhar Gupta, Editor-in-Chief of The Indian Express, on NDTV 24 X 7??™s Walk the Talk, Ashim Dasgupta says it??™s all about priorities, and defines the Left Front government??™s view of reforms: ??? From New Delhi to New York, when people tell Dr Manmohan Singh that they are afraid of the future of economic reforms in India, because his government depends on the support of the Left, he points to West Bengal, on the changes underway there, on the way reform is being undertaken and also on the way investment is being welcomed, including foreign investment. The man in the middle of all this, who is making a lot of it possible, is Dr Ashim Dasgupta, the Finance Minister of West Bengal and perhaps one of the longest-lasting finance ministers anytime. Seventeen years now? Well, about 17 years. That may be an unenviable record. In response to what you said, we in West Bengal are trying to implement economic reforms on our own terms. Of course within the limited powers of a state government. We believe that economic reforms should have a social objective. In our country, particularly in our state, that objective is basically employment generation through increases in production, in agriculture industry and spread of services. ??? And investments. And for that, investments??”in infrastructure and in social sectors. But with this objective, essence of the reforms is that we should go for more competition, more opportunity, less of monopoly. More of competition in all spheres, in market and also in the government. In market, it??™s quite clear, it??™s to lessen monopolistic power and increase competition. ??? Whether the monopoly belongs to the government or the private sector? Yes. And when market does not work, social action is required. Even within the government, you have to break down the monopoly. From the Centre, it has to come to the states. But it cannot stop at state, from state to district. But not even at the district, through panchayats to the village, through municipalities, through local bodies. But not even there, even the panchayats are not the last one, last one would be the people. ??? This doesn??™t sound very different from what Jagdish Bhagwati would say. A few nuances may be different. Otherwise, it looks as if there isn??™t that much gap left now between a practical, pragmatic Marxist finance minister and a globaliser. I think there is a difference. Prof Jagdish Bhagwati was my teacher at MIT. There is a difference, in the sense that globalisers basically have at the back of their mind IMF-variety reforms. They talk about competition which is unequal competition. The First World countries, when they developed, they got all the protection, all the subsidies. After getting developed, they now want the Third World countries to dismantle tariff barriers, subsidies in 10 years. Doesn??™t sound equal. Give us little more time. We??™ll compete on equal terms with them. That??™s the difference between Mr Bhagwati and myself. ??? But you are doing a lot of business now with the World Bank, ADB...not the IMF. India??™s not doing much business with the IMF. The World Bank of late is distancing itself from the IMF. You might have noticed, for the last four or five years. And we are doing business we intend to do on our own terms again. In health, for instance, decentralisation here has meant...You see basically, morbidity pattern indicates all over the country that of all illnesses of the people, little more than 50 per cent can be prevented. You don??™t need doctorates for medicine. You don??™t need multinational corporations selling medicines. And for remaining 50 per cent, you do not need big city hospitals. Decentralised curative treatment at the block level.... ??? But you don??™t mind multinationals selling medicines or setting up plants to manufacture medicines? Provided our domestic manufacturers can benefit from it. Otherwise, in most cases, the domestic drug manufacturers can sell the product at a cheaper price, at a safer health norm. ??? Well, everybody benefits from competition. I know you are a great supporter of competition. Yes it does. But it has to be...it cannot be one-sided competition. It has to be equal competition. ??? Competition by itself has to be equal. If there is no level playing field, there is no competition. Sometimes, in the garb of competition, if a big guy now says that I want competition for my benefit, that??™s not fair. Incidentally in health, what we did??”you see how you break the monopoly, we did. We tried an experiment...that??™s what we are discussing with the World Bank, in municipalities... ??? I believe that the World Bank is putting up Rs 600 crore for your plans now in health. Because they see what we are doing is correct. It??™s on our own terms, it??™s not their concept at all. The idea is we appointed a health worker for every 200 houses??”lady health workers??”for preventive purposes... ??? I think in two small areas. It??™s like a pilot project. Now it is actually 41, 42 municipalities, one-eighth of the population. It is big. Interestingly, you know, in the municipality round hospital, the doctors and paramedical staff are appointed on a social contract. It is really good on the basis of performance. And everybody pays fees...Fees are much below private-sector fees and above the government sector. You??™ll be surprised to see, if you take an indicator like the infant mortality rate for the country as a whole, for 1,000 child births, there are 63 deaths. In West Bengal, it is 49 as a whole. In Maharashtra 46, in Tamil Nadu 44, Kerala 10. ??? That??™s been the criticism against West Bengal. That in spite of the Left rule for such a long time, its social indicators haven??™t really picked up. Like I said, in Kerala it is 10, in China it is 13. That municipality, it has fallen down to seven; we have achieved it. We asked the World Bank people you go, go there... ??? You know that??™s the criticism. Today you are saying there is a distinction between the IMF approach and World Bank approach. But in the Left jargon so far, it was always that we will not follow World Bank, IMF policy. It was tarring them with the same brush. Many critics of the Left say, that includes myself, that when it suits the Left, they make these distinctions. That when you want to do business with the World Bank, ADB, you do so. I saw a tender notice in a newspaper saying that you now have ADB money to clean up the sewer system in Calcutta, replace manholes. Shekhar, that will be over-simplification. ??? But that??™s a fact. No, that??™s not the fact. It depends on whose priorities we are following. It is our priority. It??™s preventive and decentralised curative medicine through panchayats, through municipalities. ??? But that??™s the point. That what you see as your priority is fine. Then it doesn??™t matter where the money comes from. Otherwise anything done with international funding... That??™s the difference. If it is our priority, conceived by us and the World Bank accepts it, it??™s a loan, we pay back. It??™s as simple as that. Incidentally, do you know there is a difference between the World Bank and IMF? ??? Of course I know there??™s a difference. In fact in the Left jargon there was no difference. The World Bank, IMF, WTO... The general perception is not that. The World Bank, IMF were very similar till four years back. Distance is emerging now. ??? The World Bank, you think, is becoming more aware of your kinds of concern. Yes, they are listening, they are not imposing. And unless our priorities match, we refuse World Bank loan. We have refused World Bank loan, four years back, for the same reason. They wanted to know or wanted to mangle our priorities. We??™ll refuse it again... ??? But four years is a long time in our politics. In a way our minds have evolved. Our basic priorities have remain unchanged. ??? Why four years? Let me go back, say 30 years. In 1975, when you came back from MIT after your doctorate, a very distinguished academic career, you came to Calcutta. Just go back to that period. There was Naxalism, no economic growth, flight of capital, of jobs, talent. You??™ve seen the state in pretty much of a mess, isn??™t it? Incidentally, when I came back from MIT, my thesis at MIT was ???Income Distribution and Capital Formation in Third World Countries??™. It was a mathematical thesis. ??? Right. We tried to apply it here. When I say it has to be on equal terms, we started with... ??? Were you the last Marxist at MIT or the first? Incidentally, a latest survey in a US university said students at MIT are turning Left. We are bringing it here. ??? I see, until they become fund managers. No, to be serious, that??™s really true. It??™s the same idea. In 1975 it was a Congress-ruled state. In ??™77, when we came to power, see what we started with. We started with land reforms, redistributing land. The World Bank, in its 2000 report, they acknowledged that was the correct step. It is the World Bank which is changing, not us. ??? But in the first 10 or 15 years of Left rule in West Bengal, things were quite bleak. When you took over as Finance Minister in 1987, there were strikes, lockouts, gheraos, bandhs. There was violence, there was complete bankruptcy. I think we worked as a team. But we remained steadfast to our concept of reform, which I, at the cost of repetition, would once again mention, reforms really mean with a social objective, to dismantle monopoly, move towards more competition. You see even from a national level, this move towards more competition, to small producers, to small farmers, to small entrepreneurs, this has to be voiced more strongly. That??™s what we are doing in the Left. I request you, when you propagate reforms, this essence of reforms is very important...And even within the government, that is required. VAT...You are interested in that? ??? Yes, yes indeed. In fact I find it fascinating that a Marxist Finance Minister should be going to states like UP and lecturing traders on virtues of Value Added Tax. VAT was initiated not by any First World country but by Brazil, which then was a Third World country. Then, by chance, and which had nothing to do with IMF and so forth...It??™s a concept, where to avoid double taxation...You see the existing scheme of things, suppose you are a manufacturer in Delhi or in West Bengal, you first of all pay tax on input, with that tax load, you produce, you pay tax again. It is input tax plus... ??? Now it is a one-point tax. It is first of all...the multiplicity of tax is replaced by a simple tax. And to the benefit of dealers; it is self-assessment. ??? And as the state of Haryana has shown, it is workable. It is workable, it is revenue augmenting, it benefits small traders, small manufacturers. Since the tax margin falls, therefore the price also falls. Therefore, the consumer also gains. ??? But what I find more fascinating is the politics of VAT, that you have been chosen to head this panel nationally to implement what I see and what most people see as a great reform itself. I??™m also pleasantly surprised. But, basically, you have to listen to all people??™s views. I don??™t have any political agenda behind VAT. That it will benefit people, that??™s it. Somehow or the other, people tolerate me. ??? I??™m sure people like you very much. People in North Block say you are quite an affable presence at these meetings. They firmly overestimate me. ??? Does this put additional pressure on you? The fact that you carry your ideology and your party and yet there is an expectation that West Bengal has to convince the world by and large that Indian Marxists are not going to be standing against the wave of reform, change and globalisation. Shekhar, Marxists are basically for release of forces of production. We want production to grow but for the benefit of common people. Common people here are common producers, common farmers, common journalists like you. Marxists want to win over everybody pleasantly for their benefit. So this is the message... ??? But what??™s the reason they haven??™t won very much over West Bengal and Kerala so far? You watch. The process will spread. Will get spread. ??? That is something I haven??™t yet heard from many of your Marxist colleagues. But tell us a little bit more about your relationship with your Chief Minister. I know that you were together at Presidency College. Isn??™t it a bit like it used to be between Dr Manmohan Singh and Narasimha Rao in the last government? Mr Buddhadeb Bhattarcharya, we call him by first name. Buddhadeb and myself, we have been friends for about 40 years, very close friends. So that really helps. Very often just a phone call, half of a sentence...Ashim, Ashim bole che. I had the opportunity to work with Jyoti babu. And that was also a fascinating experience. ??? How are the two different? Put on your academics hat now. I know you teach a course at Calcutta University still. I still teach in an honorary capacity, two courses. Jyoti babu has this long experience as a politician and a statesman. He has a political vision which is very difficult for anyone to master quickly. ??? To comprehend or to absorb? To comprehend and to fill the mood of the people. That is very difficult for anyone to match. We learn from him. Buddhadeb, he??™s young like us and since there is some kind of personal friendship which is as worth as my respect for Jyoti babu was also worth. ??? Buddhadeb has said one very interesting thing. He said West Bengal suffered from many lost years, when there was almost an insane approach towards trade union activities, bandhs, gheraos. Do you share that? We have to learn from mistakes. But learning what? Mistakes is what? We have to learn from mistakes which have not served the purpose of the common people in the end. ??? So what are these mistakes? Gherao is one. Please appreciate...people have a right to protest. But the form of protest should be such that it doesn??™t hurt people in the end. You have to strike a very important balance. And there is an intense internal discussion going on among us. ??? Somnath Chatterjee said gherao was madness and Buddhadeb has said it was insanity. Now will somebody say the same thing about bandh five years from now? Three bandhs in a month! It is ridiculous. I would not comment on others??™ position...One has to strike a balance between your right to protest and your understanding of where it is affecting common people. ??? So would you say that more modern methods have to be found? Gherao has been given up, do you think a way has to be found out of bandh? I think a more socially balanced view will have to be taken. ??? And is the discussion on internally in your party? It is going on. We??™ll find a way out. ??? Now the high courts have got in. Judiciary is getting impatient because people are getting impatient as well. Like I said, West Bengal has found out a solution from very difficult situations. We??™ll find an optimal way out. ??? What can that be? Give me some idea. Why don??™t I keep guessing? Keep you guessing? ??? Let??™s debate some. Give me some idea. Just understand...Say killing of minorities, and people of West Bengal want to protest. You are looking at the road in front of Writers??™ Building. Suppose, along the side of the road, without disturbing the traffic, just silently, we can do it. The Left have done it before. We just stand... ??? Well, Bengalis have done it. Calcutta can do it. Yes, we have done it. At least, Calcutta can do it. It is a very mute but one of the strongest form of protests. People will know that. ??? So then competitive bandhs will not be required. SUCI one day, CPM-CITU one day, Mamata Banerjee another day. Because you see silent protest in a massive way requires organisational strength which, with modesty I say, Left has it. ??? Then a bandh begins to look like a cheap thing. Yes. ??? A bandh that inconveniences people. What I said is more difficult to organise. We can handle that too. ??? In the same light now... What??™s your view of that? ??? I think it would be marvellous. I was stuck in traffic for several hours because of the chakka jam. Just sort of sit in your car while batteries in your phone ran out. It is very irritating. If suddenly something happens, for some policy you suddenly find all small industries close doors, or farmers are dying, you feel like protesting. And you do it in this manner...Silent... ??? It will be a lot more effective and it will not affect people.... Would you join us? ??? Absolutely, in one way or the other. At least the paper and the media will join you. Then some of this antipathy will go away. That??™s where even small entrepreneurs, small investors will join us. ??? Tougher way to keep quiet though. That??™s right. But incidentally, I have silently won you over a bit. ??? Well, that I can see. But the other problem that we are now getting is that the West Bengal government is now wooing the IT sector, BPO sector. And you??™ve done something very innovative. You??™ve declared IT an essential service so strikes don??™t take place. But we find that your partner the CPI is now talking about bringing unionism into BPOs. Does that concern you? When we have differences among ourselves, we really sort it out, discussing within. Essentially, you have to look at the problem through the eyes of an average worker. Is he or she gaining from it? You learn from them. ??? Because if you bring unionism into BPOs, they will just shift their businesses to Brazil. ...Taking a view that we will avoid some kind of labour protest, if I find that by doing that, employment increases, wages increase, I change the form of protest. I change the form of even organisation, but keep our right of protest alive in a different form. You just have to take a correct line. ??? Well I think that will be some challenge if you could change CITU some day, and if you change your partner, particularly the CPI. The whole mindset is trade unionism, zindabad, murdabad, red flag, black flag. You know the way it happened in our party, no one person changes. It is a very collective, brainstorming session. And eventually, we arrive at a consensus. ??? Well, you may say so. But one person who??™s going to make a difference if things have to change, it is you Dr Dasgupta. We, collectively will change it. http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=60780&spf=true Courtesy:Regi P George Archive Issue! |
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| << December14, 2004 - [India Thinkers Net]Dalit poet gets place in Asia Who is Who |
December19, 2004 - [India Thinkers Net]Media is the medium of Communal KHAUF in Gujarat >> |
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